tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5955507870794027120.post2974226785109626520..comments2024-02-28T09:49:08.801+00:00Comments on The Traditional Crafts Blog: apprenticeships in traditional craftsDaniel Carpenterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09882539382647973996noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5955507870794027120.post-75161735679110667282010-01-05T13:39:47.363+00:002010-01-05T13:39:47.363+00:00Hi Robin, Excellent topic for debate, look ...Hi Robin,<br> Excellent topic for debate, look forward to feedback. Here's an American Blacksmith talking about the subject that I think you may find interesting.<br>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QMbn6d7cSk<br> May I also take the opportunity on commending you on the tenacious work you are doing on behalf of traditional crafts in the Uk.Also this Blog just gets better and more thought provoking as it develops.<br>Best regards, Johnwoodnstuffhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08044939140600548328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5955507870794027120.post-90509155990853386232010-01-05T16:54:45.893+00:002010-01-05T16:54:45.893+00:00Hi RobinA very interesting and important debate wh...Hi Robin<br><br>A very interesting and important debate which you have summarised very well. I have a couple of thoughts which may or may not be of use:<br><br>The traditional apprentice route was exclusively aimed at young people and therefore appropriate in relation to the apprentice being supported by their parents. (It was because of this a quite socially exclusive training method but that’s a separate issue). <br>Having spent years working with young people in training environments it would seem difficult to make a generally available system which required more than say one years formal training attractive to the majority of young people. <br>I would imagine the majority of people who would be seriously interested in formal training of any length would be mature people who were looking to change jobs. These are often people who have been tinkering with the craft, doing short courses etc. <br><br>This brings me on to the second thought, I am currently re-training in Shiatsu, the course is 3 years; structured so that we have a weekends training every month and then do lots of practice and self directed learning in the gaps. We of course pay course fees so the school can employ teachers. It seems to work quite well. <br><br>The crux point for traditional crafts I think is that most of the students who are willing to pay £1000’s on fees on Shiatsu training have a reasonable expectation of making an ok living at the end of the 3 years. <br><br>Just some thoughts<br><br>Best regards,<br><br>IanIanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15399273524665940298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5955507870794027120.post-87904539440520863532010-01-05T17:10:00.272+00:002010-01-05T17:10:00.272+00:00Hi,Interesting topic indeed. I'm an apprentice...Hi,<br>Interesting topic indeed. I'm an apprentice myself in France and here apprentices are paid according to their age and skills (i'm in first year and 23 and paid 53% of the minimal wage). I don't know all the details but the state helps the craftmen that hire apprentices. It's not the perfect system but it works and it's good for young people interested in crafts. I like your proposition but i think it's easier for a craftman keen to learn another skill than for a beginner. In France if you're an adult you can also learn by the Greta which offers courses and training sessions. This can be paid by the Employement Agency or your employer.<br>Congratulations for the work of the HCA. I'm looking for such an association in France but haven't found yet...<br>ByeNathaliehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06029072039388061795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5955507870794027120.post-40254485175925584722010-01-05T17:15:14.924+00:002010-01-05T17:15:14.924+00:00I think finance is a key issue here. My father was...I think finance is a key issue here. My father was a partner in a small building business, and they regularly had a couple of 'prentices learning the trade. I believe an indenture system was still in place, which was a contract protecting the interests of both parties (not necessarily equally!). Inevitably, as the 'prentices progressed beyond teaboy and general labourer they used to be a real cost to the business. Obviously, as they were learning they often messed things up, wasted materials, took too long to do a job etc etc. Why would anyone set them on? <br>Well, eventually they became more skilful and became an asset rather than a liability. The employer began to get a payback for his investment. The indenture ensured that this investment return happened, and the length of the indenture reflected the time needed for the payback. Retaining them in the business after they 'came out of their time' as they used to say round here, was another matter, and some employers with very little training initiative benefitted at the expense of those who trained people up to skilled men/women.<br><br>Nowadays, of course we have to do everything in a rush, so 5 year apprenticeships mostly just don't happen, and many jobs have been de-skilled anyway. I hear that the school-leaving age is to be raised to 18, the age of majority is also 18. The apprenticeships from age 16 to age 21 can't happen anymore. I will be very interested to see what the apprenticeship terms are in the forthcoming Monty Don TV program.<br>Obviously we can't go back to the old days, but it is quite a problem to see just how to get those skills passed on. The model apprenticeship in your post Robin sounds a good starting point, but there is the funding aspect to be considered - isn't this where I began?Richard Lawhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01339914212739970700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5955507870794027120.post-76654032925045060822010-01-05T17:29:12.442+00:002010-01-05T17:29:12.442+00:00I'm currently living in Germany and it seems t...I'm currently living in Germany and it seems to me that the 'old' apprenticeship system you describe remains more in tact here. One element which not mentioned in your post, is that this system is underpinned by ferociously protected professions as far as I can tell. So simply buying a white van, does not entitle you to call yourself a plumber or trade as a plumber here.<br><br>It's worthwhile to consider potential apprentices and their needs in two separate groups. Namely, School Leavers and Career Changers. It seems to me that the traditional apprenticeship scheme you outlined, served the School Leaver group needs pretty well. They have time to learn and practice to perfection the skills required, and also to spend time gathering fresh innovations from other enterprises, in their Journeyman year. There is a structured set of proficiency tests of increasing difficulty as a learning framework and this provided continuous confirmation of ability and quality of work. True, financing is a problem, but in my opinion School Leavers had a disproportionally tough 2008/2009 and need all the support we can give them to make the tricky transition into meaningful employment. So I think priorities for this group would be:<br>-Solve the financial issue (perhaps by a combination of parental contribution, redirected benefit payment, charitable trusts, low interest loans like students??)<br>-Ensure that the competences required are transparent, appropriately taught, practiced and tested throughout.<br>-Keep the basic model of a mixture of formal college courses (where appropriate) and practical mentored learning.<br>-Keep some form of Journeyman experience, even if reduced in duration.<br><br>However, when I think about the Career Changer group, the traditional model seems to be very poor indeed. Firstly, who among us has deep enough pockets to pay a mortgage and feed our families for 2-3 years, while we go off apprenticing and journeying? Secondly, the fundamentally 'full-time' nature makes it impossible to make any sensible transition between the first career 'day job' and the intended new career. I think then my priorities for this group would be closer to your recommendation Robin:<br> -Availability of short (1-2 weeks) intensive courses that can be attended using annual holiday, alongside the day job<br> -Encouragement and support (financial & literary if needed) for remaining talented craftsmen to get down on paper/DVD, good quality 'How to' Guides - like mentioned in the post for Blacksmithing for example. Should include clear descriptions of specific competency objectives in that craft - including both time and quality benchmarks. <br>-A functioning Mentoring system - this is really powerful and I think vital for Career Changers. For most, they can attend short courses, read books, then practice 'at home' to hone the skills and improve speed and quality of work. But inevitably they will hit difficulties at home that did not seem to be there on the courses or are not covered in the books. I like discussion forums too, where experts kindly take time to answer newbie questions, but something about having an agreed, named Mentor, who will help you see it through, would be the best help possible. Agreed Mentors need to be recompensed for their time.<br>-Freedom to start in business alongside the day job and perhaps before formal learning/modern apprenticeship is complete. By that I mean no protectionism preventing Career Changers starting in a small 'trial' way a business and selling products, even alongside the first career day job. I say 'let the market decide'. If my products are not of sufficient quality due to my lack of skill, I will find out pretty quickly that nobody will buy them.Oxtailshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02573614914391726725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5955507870794027120.post-51674971888558678942010-01-05T20:12:38.903+00:002010-01-05T20:12:38.903+00:00Hello Robin,A dutch story:After I got my A-level d...Hello Robin,<br><br>A dutch story:<br>After I got my A-level diploma, all things didn't go well. I failed to pass a entrance examination for creative teaching, military service waited and there was economical crises. I had some occasional jobs and was looking for something interesting as a apprenticeship in cabinetmaking, "only if you bring a bucket money along!". <br>So I made a detour by using the possibility for jobless adults and went to "Vakopleiding voor Volwassen", followed classes carpentry for nearly 1 year and went to work as a "concrete carpenter". Because of the economic crises, they hired only a few builder`s labourers and a lot of carpenters, because a carpenter can do also plain builder`s labourwork but not vise-versa. There was a lot of scaffolding, concrete and dust and nearly no carpentry, and when the carcass was there, I was sacked, in dispite of the fact I was the best at the eveningclasses I followed besides. <br>Fortunately my girlfriend, had a good steady job and encouraged my plan to get a cabinetmakers license, which was still required then. At that course I met 2 guys who had the same in mind and together we hired a part of the workshop of an old restaurateur, who was our teacher, on paper. As "self directed learners", I bought all the issues of "Fine Woodworking", a magnificent magazine then and all the literature I could get. In 1984 we started cabinetmakers "Kopshout" out of nothing. Kopshout made and still makes furniture on demand out of domestic solid woods. This was quite unusual then and only possible because all 3 of us had wifes with steady jobs.<br>After 17 years I left because of chronic shoulderjoints problems caused by the hard work, it still is to earn a decent income as a cabinetmaker. Besides I didn't agree with the prospect to get apprenticeships (space and use of machinery) and to become a teacher for leisure cabinetmakers.<br>Now I am a parttime woodturner and have a parttime job as planning employee, so I have managed to separate ambition and earning money!!!!! <br><br>Chris van Aar<br><br>PS Look at fushimiurushikobo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcP4pRbCpRM (1-16), perhaps an other way of apprenticeship?chrisvanaarhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07455048765820142531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5955507870794027120.post-82197198231192430712010-01-05T20:27:20.244+00:002010-01-05T20:27:20.244+00:00Wow thanks for all the very interesting ideas and ...Wow thanks for all the very interesting ideas and stories, very interesting to hear how things are in other countries too. Thanks for the link to the bamboo spoon vids Chris they are great. The internet does offer potential for learning, forums, youtube etc. I share a certain amount of my skills that way though it takes time to do and there is a limit to the understanding that can take place through video, for most it is voyeuristic like watching celebrity chefs but not cooking. My wife Nicola has a PhD looking at how tacit skills can be passed on using multimedia and the difficulty is that at any stage the learner is only open to absorb the next stage and a good teacher can package that information and tailor the level to the student. This can be done with video but it doesn't happen often. Again the forums are good because questions and answers can be tailored to the appropriate stage in the learning.Robin Woodhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05540543090007397534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5955507870794027120.post-12245832621404845352010-01-05T22:40:38.837+00:002010-01-05T22:40:38.837+00:00Hi RobinReally interesting discussion. Here's ...Hi Robin<br><br>Really interesting discussion. Here's a scheme for apprenticeships in studio pottery. Lisa Hammond of Maize Hill Pottery is the driving force behind the 'Adopt a Potter' scheme. I believe that it's funded by donations. Here's the link to the site http://www.adoptapotter.org.uk/<br><br>This following is lifted from Lisa's site:-<br><br>Adopt a Potter ' apprenticeships<br>WHO: highly commitment and competent pottery students.<br><br>WHAT: the trust is inviting applications from students seeking funding of £80.00 per week for one year to enable them to apprentice with an established, practising potter. Initially, funding is limited to applications from both apprentices and potters within the UK. Adopt a Potter Trust was set up to help secure the future of studio pottery by funding apprenticeships thus enabling students to work alongside a master potter. It is hoped that an apprentice will learn and develop some of the necessary skills required to establish their own career and business. Both the apprentice and the host potter will benefit from the arrangement but it is the apprentice who should gain most from this focused experience.<br><br>DETAILS: Mazehill Pottery, The Old Ticket Office, Woodlands Park Rd, Greenwich, London SE10 9XE<br><br>Cheers<br>Dougdoug Fitchhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12413690733976558551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5955507870794027120.post-43411547375328209092010-01-05T23:00:51.208+00:002010-01-05T23:00:51.208+00:00I apprenticed in pottery 3 years with National Liv...I apprenticed in pottery 3 years with National Living Treasure Tatsuzo Shimaoka. I started at the age of 46 (I was the oldest person to have apprenticed with him.) I was paid well. He passed away in 2007, so that opportunity is no longer available. Talk to lots of people who have done apprentices.Lee Lovehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03718418401458480928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5955507870794027120.post-86815244234340390692010-01-06T01:22:19.247+00:002010-01-06T01:22:19.247+00:00I can take a hands on lesson in carving that North...I can take a hands on lesson in carving that Northwest Native bowl you recently finished and buy the bent knife to make it with within a few miles of where I live. My favorite hardware store in Seattle carries that kind of knives.<br><br>Once people have shown initiative to get some basic training they can often find entry level positions which means on the job training for them.Karin Corbinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14558132883050492387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5955507870794027120.post-27064982639703624102010-01-06T02:21:23.307+00:002010-01-06T02:21:23.307+00:00RobinAs you know, I work in a museum setting, so m...Robin<br>As you know, I work in a museum setting, so my livelihood is not dependent on selling my furniture. But the museum always has budget problems, thus I rarely have had apprentices. When I have had them (2 good ones, each only one year, essentially) they were paid (poorly) by the museum. They were both in their 30s, so "career-changers" as someone here termed them, though both were involved in woodworking. <br><br>If I worked in the real world, instead of museum-work, it would not be practical to have an apprentice studying what I do...as you note, unless someone is paying you, any time you spend teaching someone is time out from making things...<br><br>Much of my training took place in short-term workshops, then followed by solo work trying to apply what I learned...nowadays I think the easy availabilty of information really will make a difference. Time will tell. We'll have to see the next crop of weirdo craftsmen/women, how they come up, etc.pfollansbeehttp://pfollansbee.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5955507870794027120.post-58310186552236950002010-01-07T10:53:30.821+00:002010-01-07T10:53:30.821+00:00Hi,You echo a lot of our concerns Robin. 14 years ...Hi,<br>You echo a lot of our concerns Robin. 14 years ago we were approached by parents asking if we would be prepared to train their 16 year old son. We agreed to give it a go. The lovely young lad came to us on Saturdays and midweek evenings to learn, in return for his freely given education he helped us with the mundane maintenance tasks in the workshop and at exhibitions. He is now 30 and still comes over once a week and voluntarily helps us at shows.<br><br>That was then and it has been a wonderful experience. Unfortunately current HSE and employment law would make me think twice now. <br><br>Kim (Former Glory)The Bottomerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03726170033009701810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5955507870794027120.post-8364474572558630952010-01-08T01:48:39.588+00:002010-01-08T01:48:39.588+00:00This is a link to how one traditional old time tra...This is a link to how one traditional old time trade is being kept alive.<br>http://www.nwboatschool.org/<br><br>The school teaches shipwrights methods used in the local area during the late 1800s and early 1900s. They are the only school in the world to focus on this. <br><br>You could say that indeed the people in the course are paying for an apprenticeship. They pay master builders who learned this knowledge for previous generations who learned it from previous generations to teach them all the skills. The student apprentices work on real boats that will be sold upon completion. That helps keep the school open and helps purchase materials for the next project. <br><br>Because there are now many skilled shipwrights trained at the school in Port Townsend, WA historic ships go the the community shipyards for repairs. Also new ship replicas are being built in the Puget Sound Region. <br><br>There is a big wooden boat festival in town every fall which brings hundreds of wooden boats in along with vendors and thousands of visitor. A new Maritime Heritage Museum Center is currently being built in Port Townsend. <br><br>The town already has the status of a registered, historic, Victorian Seaport. One of only two in the USA. <br><br>A fine example of the potential for a symbiotic relationship of a community supporting a the teaching and practicing of a traditional craft and that craft in a very significant way supporting the local economy including tourism.<br><br>Perhaps this great example will help you with persuading your contacts to support your programs.Karin Corbinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14558132883050492387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5955507870794027120.post-40401861420947254832010-01-19T09:02:38.671+00:002010-01-19T09:02:38.671+00:00Just wanted to thank everyone for their thought pr...Just wanted to thank everyone for their thought provoking inputs here. It is very interesting to read about the situation world wide. Karin the boat school does look wonderful.Robin Woodhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05540543090007397534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5955507870794027120.post-42691768758245615822010-01-19T10:27:32.457+00:002010-01-19T10:27:32.457+00:00love to see this discussion! It’s great to see you...love to see this discussion! It’s great to see you all working through the issues and also, it’s great to see recommendations for testing. In the end, it’s what your actual users do and prefer that should be your biggest driver in making these decisions.<br><br><br> <a href="http://www.onlineuniversalwork.com" rel="nofollow">online marketing</a>david.softechhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10019565301170508116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5955507870794027120.post-3674273956599650862010-01-20T16:25:12.941+00:002010-01-20T16:25:12.941+00:00Hello Robin,It is fascinating to see the different...Hello Robin,<br><br>It is fascinating to see the different ways that people have learned their skills.<br><br>I suppose that I never thought about it too much as I started to learn from my dad at a very early age. He was, and I now am, a woodcarver specialising in bespoke hand carved picture/mirror frames, and as far back as I can remember I was allowed to go and play at the workshop. He made it a fun place to be, he cut blocks out of the wood for me to build things and encouraged me to think of things to make. He helped me to make the things I wanted to and eventually I progressed to being taught various parts of the jobs that he did and then how to work them out on my own.<br><br>We did talk a bit about apprentices and he was of the opinion that he would not teach anyone apart from me as the time involved would be so great. He also felt that when he was teaching someone he spent most of his day making sure they had enough work and then he had to get his work done once they had gone home, not condusive to a good homelife! <br><br>I can see now how lucky I am to have been taught like this, I do not think that I would be doing this job if it had not been 'on my doorstep'. I know of one degree course that teaches what I do, they have very few students each year, I think a maximum of 4. Other than that I wouldn't even know how to go about getting an apprenticeship or learning the necessary skills.<br><br>I've been working out how I could pass on my skills but I haven't got a clue as yet how to go about it.<br><br>All the best,<br>JuttaJutta Stillernoreply@blogger.com